Characters and Creeds

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Characters and Creeds

Post  cabbie22 on Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:31 am

Hi all,

This was kind of touched upon in the Moving Pictures thread, but I'll propose it as a seperate one. Namely, what characters from fiction/TV/films do you think are good examples of Hunter's creeds? Here's my humble offerings:

Avenger - Sam and Dean from Supernatural. Aside from the fact that the pair of them are cute (Dean especially so!) the are both driven Avengers, striking out at the supernatural because of the way it preys on humanity. And because it torched their poor mummy.

Defender - Ripley from Aliens. "Get away from her YOU BITCH!" Enough said.

Judge - Dexter Morgan from Dexter. Before someone posts a "Isn't he a Wayward?" reply, no he bloody well isn't. Just because a Hunter is mad doesn't make him a Wayward! Dexter has an imperative to kill, sure, but he bases his kills on his judgement of who is deserving and who isn't. He only harms those that he believes have done wrong. I also think he's cute in a disturbing kind of way.

Martyr - Denzil Washington's character from Man on Fire. Can't remember his name as it's been a while, but this guy fits the bill (and he's cute too - notice a pattern anyone?). He's doing what he's doing so that others don't have to/won't have to. He knows that what he's going to do is probably going to end badly for him, but he doesn't care - he knows that if he doesn't step up and take it on the chin nobody will. In fact, if my recollection is correct he even
Spoiler:
sacrifices himself at the end
. On a more pretenscious note, Tess from Tess Of The D'Urbervilles (aren't you proud of me, Iain?) is most certainly a martyr. Even Hardy sees that - in the final scene he has her lying on a stone that pagans used for sacrifice as the police close in on her. Oh, and in the recent BBC adaption the girl playing Tess is very cute. Isn't that right, Mr Wilson?

Innocent - Mulder from The X-Files. The whole show got a bit shit after the third series, but in the early epsiodes Mulder was an open-minded believer and pretty optimistic.

Redeemer - Naomi Watt's character from The Ring. A classic example of what happens when you try and save evil spirits instead of just exorcising their arses! Stupid Redeemers.

Visionary - Iain's going to hate me for this, but Morpehus from The Matrix. There; said it!

Hermit - not really sure about this one.

Wayward - Jigsaw from Saw. There's a fine example of what happens when Vision and insanity go off the rails. He's busy killing those that he deems monstrous as part of his grand design. Yes, he gives them a chance to redeem themselves but that's only so that he can use them against other "monsters". Vision+Mercy+Insanity=whacko.

Anyone else want to play?
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Re: Characters and Creeds

Post  god45 on Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:56 am

Wayward - Jigsaw from Saw. There's a fine example of what happens when Vision and insanity go off the rails. He's busy killing those that he deems monstrous as part of his grand design. Yes, he gives them a chance to redeem themselves but that's only so that he can use them against other "monsters". Vision+Mercy+Insanity=whacko.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. Jigsaw (assuming this is the villian from the Saw movie) is nothing but Hollywood bastardization of conventional psychology. There is no reason for an individual in his condition to suffer such a sudden and volatile Psychotic Break. Worse still, there is nothing of an actual psychosis involved in what he does. He mutilates people by playing a "clever" (read as: stupid) game with them? That's not even sadism or antisocial personality disorder. That's just being too cowardly to kill the person yourself, so you let them kill themselves. I find no evidence save for Hollywood make-believe to even consider this individual remotely legitimate, to be honest.

Of course, by the last part of your commentary, it makes him more of a Judge. Many of them will give a monster a chance if the monster is willing to turn ont heir own kind.

Now, if you want 'real' Waywards, I can give you those. A Wayward starts out with a derangement. This can be any kind of bent, it's not just a psychosis that leads to ultra-violent behavior. Good examples would be:

Gabriel, Swordfish. A man with a vision, and no reservations in meeting it. He is clearly OCD with Antisocial Personality Disorder. His patriotism towards the US and protecting it causes him to even forsake the laws of the sovereign government (that he, as a soldier) is sworn to protect.

Bishop, Assault on Precinct 13. A man driven by a childhood of poverty and misery who chooses to inflict himself on the world in revenge. He is no coward or fool though; he plans and executes each action he takes, and he is always looking to fulfill his vision of grandeur for himself and those he places stock in.

Batman, DC Comics. Yep.. the Batman. He's nuttier than a Christmas Fruitcake (OCD, PTSD, APD), has a vision of a world free of criminals. And he gets real damn violent when the mood strikes him.

The Punisher, Marvel Comics. See The Batman, above. =P He gives off an Avenger vibe because he wants to destroy criminals in revenge for his family's deaths, but in all honesty, he has gone WAY too far in his war. He started out broken, and he only gets worse as the series of comics and the various movies progress.


Hm.. I gotta think of some other creeds later. For now, I just wanted to point out that Waywards ain't just Hollywood Serial Killers. =P
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Re: Characters and Creeds

Post  anna on Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:08 am

I'll bite on Batman. He is aware of and cares about collateral damage; he does not believe in stopping Teh Evil no matter what the cost. Doesn't that rule him out as a Wayward? Sure, he has a single-minded vision, he's socially dissociated and has a lot of other recognisable psychological problems, but I'm not sure he's a full-on Wayward. I'd put him down as Judge or Defender myself, albeit a fairly off-the-rails example. Happy to be convinced, mind!

As they were mentioned on the other thread, 28 Days Later and Frailty offer an unpleasant bag:

I'd argue that Jim (28 Days Later) could be a bystander. His reaction in the face of something he cannot explain is to run, although you could give him the benefit of the doubt: he throws his bag of cans at the vicar first. Subsequently (and fairly in the framework of the film), action is always about escape. The only point at which his focus changes from self-defence/immediate flight to full/planned engagement with the enemy,
Spoiler:
his prey is not the infected at all, but a bunch of unpleasant but entirely human squaddies
. On the basis of that engagement, I'd argue Defender.

Selena is also a Defender: she sets light to a petrol station to distract the infected and rescue Jim early on, and kills any who threaten her or hers; but she strays into Avenger territory in her dispatch of poor Mark, who she believes may have been infected (she doesn't wait for him to change; she acts immediately). Of course, a Defender under pressure may also do unspeakable things. Zeal, eh?

Contrast Major Henry West and then let's start talking about Waywards again. He recognises the threat (the infected), and identifies both a solution and a means of coping in the interim - one which is willing to sacrifice the happiness/quality of life for the few in favour of the survival of the majority. He is pragmatic, unemotional, amoral and very charismatic. He will do (or authorise) whatever it takes to achieve his ends. A Wayward for me has to be about vision, not just insanity, although their extreme actions are insane to the rest of us.

Adam Meiks in Frailty (and his Dad, who I don't think ever gets a name) probably fall into the Avenger bag (unlike a Judge, they would never permit a monster to live, or find a punishment other than death). Sure, Dad gets his list of targets "in visions from God", but there's an indication that for Adam at least this knowledge is also gained on meeting (or possibly touching) someone. They have no qualms, hesitations or regrets about killing those who are "wrong", but they never take actions that would cause collateral damage.

Brother Fenton, on the other hand, could be a Wayward - he disagrees with his family's little hobby, and deliberately murders a string of people to gain sufficient media attention to tempt his brother into a confrontation to try and kill him. That disregard of means to achieve an end screams Wayward to me, but I can't remember how he selects his victims - they may all be Bad People (if not on a List From God / the Loom of Fate / etc

Going off-topic to Looms of Fate (and rats covered in peanut butter), Fox would presumably be an Avenger, and Sloan a Visionary-gone-bad; Gibson is just a Tyler-Durden-wannabe. Tyler Durden is also a Visionary.

Can anyone think of a Visionary who uses his powers for good and isn't either desperately boring, or unbelievably Disney?

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Re: Characters and Creeds

Post  rigger111 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:46 am

Can anyone think of a Visionary who uses his powers for good and isn't either desperately boring, or unbelievably Disney?

We have a television channel here in the States called "TNT". They just started a new show called Leverage. The leader of the group from the show, a former insurance investigator by the name of Nathan Ford fits the bill perfectly as a Visionary who is anything but boring or "Disney". (underline parts are links. Check the site out)

Another character from that show, Sophie Devereaux actually makes for a fantastic Innocent, even though she isn't the least bit innocent in any classic sense. Her sense of the human condition and child-like enthusiasm over entering the make-believe world of the Grifter (a con-artist) and as a student of the human condition makes her perfect for the Creed.

Since Josh 'went there' and decided to list comic book heroes, I'm going to say Professor Charles Xavier of the X-Men as another example of a great Visionary. He's pretty much a no-brainer in that department.

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Re: Characters and Creeds

Post  god45 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:47 pm

I'll bite on Batman. He is aware of and cares about collateral damage; he does not believe in stopping Teh Evil no matter what the cost. Doesn't that rule him out as a Wayward? Sure, he has a single-minded vision, he's socially dissociated and has a lot of other recognisable psychological problems, but I'm not sure he's a full-on Wayward. I'd put him down as Judge or Defender myself, albeit a fairly off-the-rails example. Happy to be convinced, mind!

Very valid points. Batman is indeed concerned about collateral damage... most of the time. He does slip on regular occasion though, especially as seen in the Knightfall miniseries from back in the early '90s, or in the two newest movies where he does some rather reckless things like being baited into car chases through downtown Gotham or into a fistfight with The Joker in the business district. What I believe makes him a Wayward is this very impetuousness; he can be baited by the kind of thing that wouldn't faze an Avenger, and a Judge would consider the reppercussions of the act before taking it, thus being more reactive than proactive, unlike Bats is.

Some of the earlier incarnation of Batman do fit the Judge and Avenger style, though. I'm considering the more "edgy", "gritty" and "gothic" Batman more than those more 'innocent' incarnations when i make the suggestion.

The funny thing about Waywards is that you usually can't tell them apart from Avengers or Judges until they hit extremist level. The reason being that the only hard and fast rule is that they have to start with a Derangement. God45, as the Signature Wayward, proves this in alot of his early posts to Hunter-net. Everyone knew he was intense, but at the same time many of his posts were designed to restrict collateral damage or casualties. I believe that this is the most compelling thing about Waywards that make them legitimate creeds- Finding that balance between the urge to ultra-violence and trying to remain just human enough to give a shit about others.

Oh, and I just thought of another awesome example of a solid Visionary...

Laura Roselin, Battlestar Galactica(2008) She's trying to save the human race from extinction. Nuff said. ;p

Along that vein, the SciFi Channel just introduced a new series called "Sanctuary" to their Friday night lineup last season. There's a character in it, Will, who makes perfect Redeemer. You pretty much have to see the series to get a feel for it. I can't really convey it well here, it's just that cool.
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Re: Characters and Creeds

Post  iain on Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:31 pm

Visionaries... Hmm...

I'm going to plump for O'Brian from 1984. Although the world he exists in is utterly alien to our way of thinking, in the context of the novel its completely normal. Therefore a world dominated by IngSoc and New Speak is a creation of vision, rather than a blood-soaked fantasy coming from the fractured mind of a wayward.

Josh makes a good point about it being hard to differentiate between Avengers, Judges and Waywards. In Hunter's source material one of God45's first kill is against a drug dealer that he believes spread "the cancer" to his son. Is that an act of vengeance or part of his bigger picture?
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Re: Characters and Creeds

Post  potter116 on Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:20 pm

Avenger - Sam and Dean from Supernatural. Aside from the fact that the pair of them are cute (Dean especially so!) the are both driven Avengers, striking out at the supernatural because of the way it preys on humanity. And because it torched their poor mummy.

I see Dean, (who is very cute, but not as cute as Sam), as more of a Defender. His prize would be his family and he will go to any means to protect them.

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Re: Characters and Creeds

Post  anna on Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:06 pm

God - I bow to your superior knowledge of Batman

My boy came up with 2 more Visionary suggestions, both off-centre enough to make me laugh (but accede the point; albeit a little worried as these blur the line between fiction and history): Francis Walsingham and Gust Avrakatos. You could argue the Defender angle, acknowledging that they too can have big ideas and appreciate a bigger picture - but I can see where he's coming from (especially given his 5-second-per-creed precis of what the hell I was talking about; he doesn't rp).

Walsingham was Elizabeth I's spymaster and a brilliant political strategist, even if you don't believe everything in the movies As portrayed by Geoffrey Rush, he's a dedicated power behind the throne, driven by an ideology that is in part but not entirely built around Elizabeth (it is far more about using her as a figurehead, and the stability of the English Protestant state). And he could have your ass. Believe it.

Gust Avrakatos was the CIA case officer who masterminded the arming of the Afghanistani people in the conflict with Russia in the 80s, working with Charlie Wilson. Again, as a Company man, he could be entirely hands-on - but he was driven by the understanding of what conflict (or stability; let alone communism) in that region meant for the US. Being a patriot, perhaps that makes him a Defender by definition and it was Charlie who was the Visionary.

Interesting suggestions? Being real-life political figures of sorts, it probably makes them both Bruises or somesuch instead

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Re: Characters and Creeds

Post  iain on Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:48 am

Ooooh! History! My favourite!

My personal historical hero, James IV of Scotland, was most certainly a visionary. Hell, he's even descibed in some primary texts as being "a man of vision"! James inherited a country torn apart from civil war and run by a trecherous and corrupt nobility and it was his vision to transform Scotland into a nation that was not only stable but was technologically, scientifically and culturally on par with the rest of Europe (which was a tall order given that we Scots had perfected civil war to a fine art and had ruined our nation through it).

The specifics are sketchy, but over the course of his reign it appeared that he did manage to achieve his vision. Scotland had some of the largest gun foundaries in Europe and her craftsmen were considered amongst the finest on the continent. James ordered the construction of a grand fleet and ended up with about forty vessels which, for a nation the size of Scotland, was impressive. His flagship, The Great Michael, was amongst the largest warships in Europe at the time. James was also known as a great patron of the arts, and set up the first printing press in Scotland to allow easy distribution of the written word. His focus on the value of education and the written word is something that Scotland proudly upholds to this day.

However, probably his greatest vision was that of a lasting peace with England. Sadly, on the surface it looks like he failed. Although he signed a treaty with Henry VII in the early 1500s (called something grand like the Treaty of Perpetual Peace) he broke it in 1513 when he invaded. Scotland was signed up to an older mutual defence pact with France (the Auld Alliance - which usually saw Scotland sticking her neck out for France and getting very little in return) and when Henry VIII invaded France in 1513 (presumably with full knowledge of Scotland's obligation to France) James had to respond. In fairness he did try and broker a peace deal in the build up to war, but neither the French or the English seemed interested. James died in battle against the English at Flodden - the last British monarch to fall in battle.

However, James' pursuit of the treaty with England allowed his vision to be realised long after his death. As part of the treaty he married Henry VII's daughter which lead to a direct line of issue which eventually resulted in the Union of the Crowns of England and Scotland almost a century later.
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Re: Characters and Creeds

Post  Apple422 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:45 am

Watchmen:

Adrian veidt - wayward. Destroys a city to save the world.

Rorschach - Judge. Good and evil, black and white, no compromising.

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Re: Characters and Creeds

Post  iain on Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:57 pm

Jennifer Carpenter from Dexter is a perfect match for Cabbie22. Latino looks, loads of attitude, a nice lline on protecting others...oh and a mouth like a sewer.

Perfect.
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Re: Characters and Creeds

Post  Acolyte621 on Sat May 16, 2009 7:29 am

How about the main character in The Dead Zone as a visionary that isn't a complete wuss?

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Re: Characters and Creeds

Post  Buck413 on Mon May 18, 2009 5:52 am

Battlestar Galactica:

I couldn't help thinking some of the characters were fairly well suited to the themes of Hunter (being generally pretty average folks who were totally in over their heads)...

Lee Adama: Judge (although he makes some bloody awful judgements along the line, he turns out alright)

"Helo": Defender

"Starbuck": Avenger

"Kat": Avenger

"Duck": Martyr

Admiral Cain: Wayward

I'm pretty sure the same is true of The Wire, but I'm not really far enough into that to have started assigning Creeds to characters yet. Have to agree with Iain's observations of Deb in Dexter though!

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