Dogma

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Re: Dogma

Post  rigger111 on Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:15 pm

> Don't worry, Rigger honey, I'll keep him out of trouble.

Yeah, okay. Hey guess what? Epic Phail, he's already found trouble.

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Re: Dogma

Post  bookworm55 on Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:46 pm

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From: bookworm55
Subject: The Opposite View

No, God. Class is not dismissed.

I've managed to collect my thoughts, and now I'd like to make a real debate out of this travesty. There is a debate here, God, whether you believe it, like it, or not. You're welcome to your opinion, but your facts are somewhat biased by that opinion.

Mainly, I'd like to address the concept of shedding "sentimentality". It's not just human nature to act in a way which causes one to place priority on or designate value towards certain emotionally stimulating objects or ideals. It is a physical imperative created as part of the human defense mechanism and survival instict. This is first noted as part of Darwin's "Suvival of the Fittest" theory, where-in he postulates that Mankind is not capable of being the 'top of the food chain' due to his penchant for sentimentality, but then recants as he suggests that it is this very "human spirit" which may provide the extra emotional and psychological stimulation necessary to rise above the animal kingdom and be capable of reasoned intellect.

Psychologists throughout history, including notables such as Carl Jung, have theorized and even proven that the human mind thrives on the concepts of religion, music, art and theater. That without esoteric action, metaphysical belief, or abstract ideals, humans cannot function at peak mental and psychological efficiency. In short, not having a level of sentimentality can make a human being mentally unhealthy, thereby possibly incapacitating them.

Personally, I believe that we all draw strength from a variety of ideals and concepts. Abstract thought, inspirational religion, or eccentric iconoclasty... it doesn't matter. What does matter is that we, as individuals believe in it and draw emotional strength from it. The representations of these ideals, be they family, a piece of music, a favorite book, or whatever, can provide much needed comfort to an imbued who has lost the will to continue, or who may need a spiritual kick in the pants to "get their head back in the game", so to speak. In clinging to sentimental mementos or ideals, we make ourselves stronger by having a "shelter" that we can return to at times in which we are demoralized or in need of emotional recharging.

Yes, the social imperative is to sort out a 'pecking order' of leaders and followers; that is inarguable logic. Even a general consensus starts with one man giving voice to a concern. However, that social imperative also provides a solidarity which exclusionism cannot thrive it. So long as a collection of individuals is capable of reasonable discourse, they are also capable of maintaining civil relations and a social support network in one form or another.

Trust is a commodity no matter where you go. As human beings, our very first step in our fight against the monstrous should be to cognizantly be aware that we are now forced to trust one another to one extent or another. If a rift is formed, then each of us should accept responsibility as mature, thinking human beings and act to resolve the situation with expediance and care. "Burying the hatchet" is only half the battle; once that is accomplished, then we should work toward building stronger bridges of understanding or communication.

I agree that a monster will attempt to exploit the "human condition" to foment mistrust. However, humans are capable of seeing past such manipulations. We're not animals. We have the means to make that weapon in the monstrous arsenal ineffective without having to give up everything we hold sacred.
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Re: Dogma

Post  rigger111 on Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:30 am

lolwhut?

Did Bookworm just verbally wtfpwnz0r God's ass?

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Re: Dogma

Post  cabbie22 on Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:30 am

Although I hate to agree with Rigger, he's right. Bookworm's post flies in the face of all that God45 has written and afirms a basic truth; that it's our basic human feelings - love, compassion, friendship and happiness - that make us who we are and, more importantly, give us the urge to stand up against Darkness. If we were to all act as God45 suggests and abandon our families and friends so as to shake off whatever conditioning it is that his paranoid mind has conjured up just what the fuck would be left that would be worth protecting? Nothing - we'd simply be an army of glassy eyed killers shooting things because they felt different to us.

I really don't think that that's what the Messengers intended us to become. Nearly all of us here do what we do because we can't stand seeing humanity pushed around and abused.
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Re: Dogma

Post  god45 on Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm

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subject: re: The Opposed View


Let us establish one fact beyond all else before we begin. Our Enemy, we can all agree, have been in existences for as long as humans have had a means to communicate, correct? Anecdotal evidence of their existence exists from ancient mythology. Books of both lore and fiction have been written about these "Monsters" as long as there has been a written word, correct?

Well then. Now I'll give you a few more facts. V_mp_r_s do not just corrupt the business and law enforcement infrastructure. In fact, there are a number of factions which exploit and corrupt the media or consider themselves patrons of the arts.

The medical industry is not immune either. Do you, Bookworm, not have your own report concerning a number of goblins in orderly uniforms in a hospital? Ones whom you did, in fact, have to kill? I can assure you that I have more than one story dealing with a monster who has infected a local hospital or clinic; Crusader is not the only one who found the Enemy hidden among and preying upon the infirm and ill.

Consider a large portion of your supposed psychological theory to be circumspect. There is nothing to prove that Doctor Jung and many of his peers were not the victims of monstrous misdirection or even mind control. It is true that music, theater, and other forms of art can soothe the malcontent, but wouldn't this be the whole point? Monsters do not like it when people ask questions or are unhappy. Consider this: The Dark Ages where a time in which The Spanish Inquisition thrived. Witch Hunts and Exorcisms were a common thing. Monsters were a household concept, and every human was vigilant of them. Then came the Renaissance, where people seemed to become "enlightened". Superstition dropped away. Art and Literature flourished. Mankind's collective interest shifted to a new perspective. Some might consider this a distraction. Smoke and mirrors designed to end a coup of epic proportions, which would have resulted in the extermination of all of our Enemy.

Mankind was at a point in their existence where they no longer feared the night. They were engaged in a holy pogrom to take our planet back from forces that did not belong. And yet, this inexhorable momentum was suddenly stymied by a sudden lack of interest? A shiny object, so to speak, in the form of pretty pictures, carved rocks and prancing fools on stages in a couple of countries? And this was beneficial to Mankind's well-being?

It's called manipulation. Misdirection. Ask Crusader- did not Satan's greatest trick be the one where he convinced the world that he doesn't exist?

Well we know that Satan exists. He exists in the form of the liars and theives who steal our right to prosper in a world that was meant for us, and us alone. Outsiders who come and steal our children away from us in the night, using the darkness as a cover because the even the clean, honest light of day burns and kills them.

In fact, even popular religion took a sudden turn in both stance and philosophy during this period of time. Europe was a hotbed of Monster hunting throughout history, I think we can agree. Now, why do you suppose that was? Here's a theory of my own that I have-

In the early 9th century, many governments began to strip the Catholic Church of secular power, forcing them into a purely spiritual role. Now, be aware that I have no love for the Church; I find it as cumbersome and corrupt as any other social edifice. However, the Church served as the moral compass for many noblemen of the time, and managed the well-being of the downtrodden masses. Suddenly stripped of the authority to control these masses, the Church would find itself constantly at odds with increasingly corrupt governments. This is clearly seen in Italy, Germany and England. It went so far that King Henry of England even broke off from the Orthodox Church and started his own, in order to gain further control. Why do you suppose that was? Unilateral Church politics and corruption were not seen until the 15th and 16th century.

My theory is that it was a power play by the Enemy to separate these two edifices of humanity in order to weaken them and corrupt them from within. With two very human factions warring for power between themselves, vacuums open within the ranks through death, abdication, murder or other foul play. Fill those with loyal minions,a nd you ultimately take control of two social structures which control most, if not all huamn thought. Gain control of these two edifices, and you gain control of the hearts and minds of mankind.

What else would likely explain the sudden shift in stance concerning Witches and Exorcism in the Catholic church after the 16th century? By the late 1700s superstition was all but buried under the supposed Industrial Revolution and the Church was reduced to an antiquated relic of anachronistic silliness in the public's collective eye. Why? What led to the sudden turn-about in perception?

Our Enemy is entrenched in every single aspect of our lives. Every social construct we have created is in some way corrupted byt hem. No convention is safe from them. No ideal is untouched. To be blunt--you simply do not know if your ideals are your own, or if they are the machinations of some bloodsucking nightmare from the darkness. Do you want to take comfort from the very things that rape and kill your own families? Do you want to follow doctrines that most likely were established by the things which feed on your brethren and keep them enslaved?
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Re: Dogma

Post  rigger111 on Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:43 am

Hey, look- I wasn't AGREEING with Bookworm. I didn't even understand half of what he fucking said. I just got a laugh out of him slamming God with a wall o' text that pretty much went against everything God said.

The problem here is that they're both fucking right, and nobody's willing to admit it. Some folks do better when they keep under the bad guy's radar by sticking close to home. Most don't. They do better when they give it all up and fuck off to parts unknown.

I mean shit... I haven't been near the water in six months, and I LOVE the sea. I took every derrick and tanker and drydock job I could before I got the Call. But it's because I did that that I got to look for work inland now. I don't want to get too predictable, you know? Maybe one day one of the fuckers who got away might pick up on that shit, right? So I keep moving, and I don't set down any roots. I also don't think much about who I was around before I got tapped either. But I know why I do this, and it's got alot to do with keeping certain folks safe.

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Re: Dogma

Post  cabbie22 on Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:25 pm

rigger111 wrote:But I know why I do this, and it's got alot to do with keeping certain folks safe.

Me lleva la chingada, but I'm actually going to agree with Rigger on something!
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Re: Dogma

Post  traveler72 on Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:25 am

To: hunter.list@hunter-net.org
From: traveler72
Subject: re: The Opposed View



> In other words- stay out of my business, Traveler.. or I will make a point of getting into yours.

Maybe that's the problem, here. You're spending too much time in other people's business to worry enough about mine. My business being the fucking Mission, Bro.

I understand that you got a way of seeing things that others don't. That's cool. But when you start fucking with people's heads, you pretty much telling us you're on the wrong side. This is about making the world a better place, and unless you got a reason to fight, you're going to lose sight of just what "Better" means.

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Re: Dogma

Post  god45 on Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:27 am

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subject: re: The Opposed View

You have all managed to fail to grasp the why behind my statements. It has less to do with becoming a more efficient killer, and so much more to do with cleansing this world of corruption. The continued perpetration of crimes against the innocent is all part of the wider scope of the Enemy's machinations. Allow me to put it into monosyllabics so you can understand it:

If you don't leave, they will track down your loved ones and kill them (or worse) to get to you. If you show bad guys that you care about stuff, they will use the stuff you care for to trap you. Folks who did no wrong will pay for your screw ups.

I eagerly await Bookworm's rebuttal now, as I have have been too busy tailing my latest target to catch up on Oprah and Ellen to get my daily affirmations.
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Re: Dogma

Post  cabbie22 on Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:29 am

And who's better to defend those loved ones than us? It's all very well saying "Yeah, just up and leave!" but it's not that fucking easy, is it? Everyone's got ties and breaking those ties can leave the ones we love in the lurch. What happens to the wife abandoned by her husband and who can't pay the mortgage? Or the kids left to be brought up without a mother?

Acting like that can kill a family as easily as any monster could.
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Re: Dogma

Post  god45 on Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:17 am

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subject: re: The Opposed View

Since Bookworm seems to be busy, I'll see what sport can be derived from a new sparring partner.

> And who's better to defend those loved ones than us? It's all very well saying "Yeah, just up and leave!" but it's
> not that fucking easy, is it?

It is that easy. Watch, I'll show you how.


> What happens to the wife abandoned by her husband and who can't pay the mortgage?

Take out a life insurance policy on yourself. A considerable one. Wait six months and lay low. Drive your car full speed at a local gas station on a rain-slick night. Light three jars of gasoline in your back seat just prior to the next step. Dive from the vehicle about twenty feet before it hits the pumps. Disappear. With the shoddy nature of investigators most insurance companies employ in our society today, you'll be declared dead and your survivors will be endowed a payout within forty-eight hours. They receieve monetary support and a chance to grieve your loss before it eventually happens.

> Or the kids left to be brought up without a mother?

End it badly. Get caught "cheating" on your husband. Give him a reason to move on without you, and do not contest his attempt to claim custody of the children.


In short- make the sacrifices. You are worthless to these people from the moment you get the Call. You cannot functionally provide for them because you cannot function properly in a normal work environment. You cannot support them emotionally, because most of you will become nervous wrecks or paranoids inside of six months of beginning to hunt.

Worse still is the simple fact that you will be forced to perpetuate the lie. You will have to smile and tell your spouse and children that everything is alright. You will keep them from ever having the chance for their own eyes to open simply by doing just what the enemy wants you to do- lie and tell them that there are no such thing as monsters. To do otherwise would cause them more emotional and physical distress than leaving them ever could have.
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Re: Dogma

Post  bookworm55 on Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:00 pm

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Subject: re: The Opposed View

My apologies for not posting as frequently as usual. I've been in contact with Violin99 and Fyodor and the discussions have been exceedingly draining. I find I often do not have sufficient stamina these days for prolonged sitting after having lost my legs.

I will concede to the legitmacy of your hypothesis, God. However, I would like to advance that it is also possible that the situation you describe is reversed. It may have been that monsters are the product of that self-same political corruption. They may, in all probability, be the victims of too much excess and have succumbed to some sort of supernatural malady because of it. I hold out no hope that we can "cure" any of these beings in a classic sense, but it is possible to "re-humanize" them. Should this be the case, then perhaps one or more them will be willing to explain to us who actually started the corrupting influence. It seems to me that this is a "chicken and egg" scenario to be honest.

Casting blame and suspicion about to the aside, I have to consider a caveat to your entire diatribe: it is not about the intent of a manipulator. it is about the intent of the adherent. People are capable of making up their own minds. Many who follow a religion or who stay with family for the sake of protecting them are using very solid judgment. They decide for themselves what moral and ethical imperative to place on dogma and doctrine, and they choose for themselves what is safe practice to keep their families from harm. The single error to your relaitively flawless arguments is the simple nature by which you generalize environmental conditions and subjects. People are unique; each will make decisions based on individual stimuli.
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Re: Dogma

Post  traveler72 on Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:15 am

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From: traveler72
Subject: re: The Opposed View

Any chance you two can maybe start talking in English the rest of us can understand too? All I'm seeing so far is "You're all soft!!!!" followed by "Being soft is good!!!" Not entirely sure just what the Hell the rest of them five dollar words mean, and I ain't playing enough Scrabble to get no other use out of 'em.

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Re: Dogma

Post  god45 on Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:14 am

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Humans are more susceptible to manipulation than to becoming the aggressors in a situation. It is easy to lead them into aggression, but rare for one to be capable of such acts of their own accord. Consider that over the course of hundreds of years, otherwise innocuous-seeming actions have had reppercussions which echo through multiple generations. Most humans in the Middle Ages did not have the education or self-awareness to consider such concepts. Monsters, on the other hand, which possess lifespans hundreds or even thousands of years in duration, can conceive of such reppercussions.

For the TL;DR crowd: V_mp_r_s are good at manipulating people and history because they can live to tweak events. Happy now, Traveler?
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Re: Dogma

Post  traveler72 on Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:46 am

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Subject: re: The Opposed View

Yeah, actually I am, thanks. Fuckin smart-ass.

Okay, so now that I know what you're on about, here's my two cents-

Yeah, bloodsuckers and ghosts and rots are probably changing the course of history. I'll agree with that. But in the end, they can't actually control history, or the entire world. Sure, they got alot of the media and law enforcement and government in their pockets... but not all of it. If they did, then nothing good would ever happen. People... normal people... eventually get sick of the status quo and shake shit up. There's no way a monster is going to let that happen. Look at Rosa Parks. Doctor King. Fuck... go all the way back and look at Abraham Lincoln. You think bloodsuckers wanted that to happen? I bet they used to use our great grandparents as fucking snackers, since they weren't legally considered human beings to Ol' White Massa. Bet it was inconvenient for them to suddenly have to start doing something with the bodies of the brothers they ate once we got us some freedom and rights, eh?

So there's no way they can control the minds and spirit of an entire world or country. Sure, they can sway popular opinion. I'll agree to that, no problem. But in the end, there's always gonna be a Rosa Parks who's just too tired to put up with it. They can't control everyone, so they can't decide what we want to do when we're given the choice to decide for ourselves what's right and wrong. And that shit comes from the heart as much as the head.

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Re: Dogma

Post  capricorn432 on Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:13 pm

traveler72 wrote:Look at Rosa Parks. Doctor King. Fuck... go all the way back and look at Abraham Lincoln.

Bloody right Traveler! If we assume that "normal" people are just blind sheep then we're no better than the monsters! To assume that the world's simply a big playground for monsters is nonsense, because I bet if those evil fuckers had their way the world would be a helluva lot worse than it is now!

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Re: Dogma

Post  bookworm55 on Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:45 pm

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Subject: re: The Opposed View

We can agree on that point, God. However, I fear I will not convince you of the legitimacy of my others, and so I will choose to simply call an end to this discussion amicably, hopefully with the understanding that I do respect your views, even though I cannot accept them.

Well said, Traveler. Your statements not only support a number of both God's points and my own, but are quite inspirational. I hope many view your words and take their meaning to heart.
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Re: Dogma

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